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BY
PHRA ACHARN THATE DESARANSI : WAT HIN MAAK PENG NONGKHAI, THAILAND. |
CONVERSATIONS BETWEEN PHRA
ACHARN THATE DESARANSI AND PHRA BUNTA PASANNACITTO |
R
E S U M E : PHRA BUNTA PASANNACITTO
Native of the province of Maha Sarakham, he sojourned in many
places to earn a living. He had just barely enough knowledge
to read and write. Once he met a monk who practised meditation.
After some conversation with the monk, he was inspired with
faith. So he left the life of laity and entered monkhood under
the supervision of an Upajjhaya named Phra Thep bundit of Wat
Sri Muang, Nong Khai Province. That was at the age of forty-six.
He spent one Vassa season with the Upajjhaya. After that he
took leave of him and spent the following Vassa seasons under
the supervision of Phra Acharn Thate at Wat Hin Maak Peng in
the district of Sri Chiangmai.
He has attended to the
practice of meditation regularly. Upon some doubts pertaining
to the practice, he asked Phra Acharn the following questions:
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How
does Samadhi become deteriorated? How does Panna become degenerated,
so that the heart is darkened? |
If the heart
of Samadhi of Panna, any of these three undergoes deterioration,
it means the rest does also suffer, because they are interrelated.
In fact, the heart cannot suffer from dererioration: the heart
is just the one who thinks, who ponders, and who feels. When
we say it deteriorates, we mean it is thinking of defiling
matters, so that it becomes disheartened, arid, and uneasy,
Here we say, the heart degenerates, or the Citta drops. You
may coin a word or phrase in whichever way you like.
However, the
Citta still functions in its usual manner. If the Citta is
firm and concentrates on one particular object (Ekaggata),
which is called Samadhi, the Citta then brightens and rejoices.
When it turns to contemplate on anything, it is capable of
seeing brilliantly, minutely, and clearly. This is what we
call the arising of Panna. In conclusion, we may say that
when the Citta attains Samadhi upon being firm on one particular
object of concentration, it is capable of further contemplation
with uninhibition. This is to say the Citta, the Samadhi,
and the Panna are well developed, whereas the contrary will
be considered a deterioration.
If there is
a question as to the cause of deterioration, the answer must
be that deterioration is caused by slackness of attention.
Having attained that state of Samadhi, one becomes imprudent,
while at the same time, one is not yet proficient is the matter
of Citta, Samadhi, and Panna. |
In
contemplating the Sankhara (mental formations), if one contemplates
with the right view, it becomes Dhamma. If one contemplates
with the wrong view, it becomes Loka (the world). What shall
we do? |
In this Loka,
there is no Dhamma : there is only Loka. What is Loka but
a composition of creatures, or, of the physical and mental
aggregates. When we were
born, the world had already existed. Since we are still living,
we ourselves constitute Loka. What is Loka? It is moving,
rotating, and changing; it is not constant. Neither is it
firm, nor lasting. This is to say: Loka is in this condition
forever. So the Teacher explicates the topic of Loka Dhamma.
Loka Dhamma consists of happiness and unhappiness, praise
and abuse, gain and loss, and honour and dishonour. These
are Loka Dhamma. They signify Loka and are thereby referred
to as the dhamma of Loka. So it is difficult to make a just
distinction between Loka and Dhamma. Whatever is Dhamma is
Loka.
Whatever is
Loka is Dhamma. I have said in the beginning that this Loka
has no Dhamma : there is only Loka. If there were to be Dhamma
at all, there would be that Loka Dhamma. This is why the Teacher
teaches of Loka Dhamma.
Once we understand
Loka Dhamma, we shall not become entangled. Neither shall
we become attached nor infatuated. In this way, we shall be
considered above the mundane. The Buddha became enlightened
in nothing but Loka. Dhamma This is not the Dhamma above or
beyond us. When the Buddha became enlightened in the truth
of its condition, he sew its harm. So he became bored and
loosened himself of attachment. He was no more infatuated.
The heart became clean and brightened, standing above the
mundane, higher than Loka, at which stage he attained the
Lokuttara Dhamma.
And you asked
what shall you do. The answer is, if one contemplates the
Loka in such a way that one sees Loka as the physical and
mental self, while with misunderstanding one becomes attached
to it, one is bound to suffer. If one considers the physical
and mental entity as it truly is, in the same way as one considers
the Loka, one will not be lost in the wrong view and will
not bicome attached to it.
One will certainly
loosen oneself and lay down the burden. This is agreeable
with the Dhamma and leads not to suffering. When one contemplates
and sees thoroughly and clearly the whole truth, one will
not make a fool of oneself by becoming attached to the physical
or mental entity, for it will only bring about suffering naturally. |
At
one time when I contemplated the Sankhara or the mental formations,
I saw it clearly that it was Anatta there was no self, no "I"
nor "they" I saw it so clearly that I became bored
and wished to contemplate it no more. But, later when I tried
to contemplate it again, I couldn't see it as clearly. What's
the cause of this change? |
Most of those
who practise Samadhi have that kind of experience. In the
end they will turn out a failure. They are not capable of
maintaining the Samadhi state. This is because the way they
see it is not coustituted by Panna Vipassana or the wisdom
that comes right out of Magga (the Righteous Eightfold Path).
That seeing on the contrary, comes from Jhana. It might give
one a clear vision, so that one becomes bored and all, but
it is the kind of boredom that is mixed with anger (Dosa),
void of rational basis.
Therefore, the
heart turns toward unrest and develops more of the mental
depression and pathos. To make it short, I shall conclude
it this way: the one, who sees that the body is Anatta, may
come to hold on to one's own view so that the view becomes
crystallized into an Atta(that is, so possessed that it has
become implanted into the self). This means that when one
does not rationalize the constituent of Anatta, one's knowledge
will be limited.
And one will
eventually become bored with the usual contemplation of the
subject. This means the heart is beginning to deteriorate
from the stage of Dhamma it once reaches. Later as soon as
one realizes that one is no more capable of a clear perception
ad one used to get, one finds that the past experiences have
also become hazy.
Therefore, meditation
students should take this into consideration and should be
very cautious.
Some misunderstand
that they have come to the end of the mundane life. Why is
it so? Because even if they have contemplated Anatta in everything,
they have unwittingly fostered it into an Atta. |
To
say that one is void of Kilesa or defilements, does this mean
that the Kilesa is complete gone, no more hanging around? Or,
does it mean that the Kilesa is still there, but unable to difile
the heart, due to the stronger power of Sati (awareness), samadhi
(calm), and Panna (wisdom)? |
The various
mental defilements are called Kilesa. The sources of Kilesa
are the six senses, namely the eyes, for example. To say that
one is void of Kilesa means exactly what it says literally.
The teacher does not say that the Kilesa is completely gone
with nothing left as when the fire has burned down the straws.
The Teacher simply means that the Citta is not being entangled
in the snare of the various mental holders, which are going
to stain and stifle the heart.
Of course, the
Kilesa is still the Kilesa, just as it naturally is. In a
certain expression, it is retranslated as one who is far from
all Kilesa. I myself do not know how far gone is the Citta
from the Kilesa: and, how can it turn itself afar? This is
only an idiom. As a matter of fact, it probably means that
no more does one take hold of the Kilesa. No more does one
defile one's heart. All this is the result of the power of
Sati, Samadhi, and Panna, which have been efficiently developed.
Whatever is
said is interesting all right. Is there anything else you
would like to speak of or discuss. Let me hear of your views
on your past experiences, or your views on your meditation
practice.
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May
I have permission. When we suffer a great deal from physical
illness, should we try to maintain our calm, or should we contemplate
the feeling of suffering and fight it off? |
Either way will
do. That is, some who suffer from the pain severer than they
can bear will need to fight it off by calm, that is, leaving
everything completely out of the consciousness. This is possible.
That is , they turn toward calm and free the heart so that
it reaches the state of calm fully, becoming altogether unconscious.
They can drop themselves in that state for an hour or two.
And as soon as the heart withdraws, whatever illness or pain
may absolutely disappear.
There are many
cases like this. Those who use this method, of course, is
not going through a hardship or adventure. They merely seek
an asylum. As if running into a safety ditch upon an air raid.
When the bombers come, they are afraid, so they run into the
ditch.
Anyway, those
who can use this method must be very keen indeed. Their heart
must be brave in order to succeed. Yet, the success is not
always achieved.
I knew of a
Chinese man who liked to follow this method. He belonged to
a very old generation that still preferred wearing pigtails.
This Chinese man practised meditationby himself and was capable
of attaining calm all along. He did not have to eat ordinary
food. He usually kept a bag of fried rice with him.
Whenever he
was hungry, he would hold the dried ricer in his mouth and
continued to sit in meditation. A superior monk observed this
and made a remark to him, " Uncle, is this comfortable?"
"Yes, it
is comfortable even without food."
The Chinese
man also lived in the midst of wild animals in the forest.
Even tigers came to bear children in the same cave he lived.
They lived in the same place and had no fear. This type of
person had a great deal of loving-kindness, loving kindness
for animals. He had sympathy for them, identifying himself
with those animals.
Nevertheless,
right before his last breath, as someone told me, I did not
see him myself, this Chinese man became quite restless. He
became unconscious of what he was doing.
Another story,
there was a monk, who was the same way, At the time he was
dying in his cell, he was in a terrible commotion. He could
not hear his brother's call. They had to break in the door.
Finally, he died without an awareness. These are examples
of the ones who practised only for the sake of calm. There
is no wisdom involved. Principally speaking, it is the practice
in which one dwells in the state of Jhana, of living in Jhana.
This method
may be useful, but only on some occasions. You cannot count
on it seriously. That is, if you are going to be completely
free from sufferings and their causes, you need wiscom. It
is not possible to use calm by itself. As you see, calm is
useful on occasions, but not all the time.
Therefore, the
best way is: When the feeling of suffering occurs, one should
contemplate it in accordance with the method of Satipatthana
(method of conducing
consciousness), so that one is capable of perceiving it indifferently,
without possissing such a feeling as part of the self.
Having a clear
preception on the basis of this justification, one will release
oneself of possessiveness in the various physical and mental
activities. At the same time, one will eventually acquire
a kind if measurement of oneself. Since we are concerned with
our physical and mental activities, we can see their various
states, as they really are, we can see how much we can free
ourselves of possessiveness. This is walking along the Path
of Right eousness, which is considered Wipassana wisdom. It
is very useful, to follow the righteous Eightfold path to
face the problem and to contemplate it will contribute to
wisdom which can make us capable of freeing ourselves from
attachment. This is why the best way is that after we have
practised calm sufficiently, we should learn to contemplate
problems. It will be very good to be able to make use of both
methods. |
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