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BY
PHRA ACHARN THATE DESARANSI : WAT HIN MAAK PENG NONGKHAI, THAILAND. |
CONVERSATION BETWEEN PHRA
ACHARN THATE DESARANSI AND PHRA POONSAK NANAVADHDAKO |
R E S
U M E : PHRA POONSAK NANAVADHDAKO
Native of the province of Cholburi, he graduated from the
Military Academy and served the Air Force up to the rank of
lieutenant colonel. He was married and had three children.
He was interested in meditation and went to practise at Wat
Maha Dhatu. After some training, he noticed that when he worked
up to a certain degree of concentration, his body would be
shaken. His teacher could not help him solve this problem.
And he became quite annoyed by it, so he gave up the practice.
Later he read a book on Mindfulness of Breathing (Anapanasati).
He followed the method until he mentally perceived an image
of a corpse with its loathsome aspects(Asubha). He became
so much graven that he cried. Besides, there were also other
images that appeared to his mental perception.
One day
he happened to meet Phra Acharn Thate at Wat Phra Sri Maha
dhatu, Bangkhen.Phra Acharn Thate had come from Phuket to
spend a few days there. So he went to pay respect to Phra
acharn and asked him some questions on meditation, especially
on the experiences he had had from the beginning of the practice.
For this he received quite a clear explanation. Furthermore,
he also received advices on the way to practise, which he
made use of until he came to his own realization. One method
included a contemplation on the five Aggregates, from then
on he came to be trained by Phra Acharn, communication with
him mainly by mail, since Phra Acharn stayed in the province
of Phuket.
He followed
the method and advice of Phra Acharn Thate for not less than
ten years. In the meantime he began to feel braved at the
prospect of entering monkhood. That was because he felt that
it was difficult to attain an expected goal while being a
layman. For three years he led a life of chastity. He used
to submit a letter of resignation to his superior, but the
resignation was not granted. At the same time Phra Acharn
thate did not quite agtee to his resignation.
However,
in the year 1974 he felt that blemishes in the life of laity
were more than he could bear, so he decided to ask for permission
to enter monkhood. It happened that at the time his superior
was changed and Phra Acharn could not detain him any longer.
Therefore, he entered monkhood at Wat Hin Mark Peng. Phra
Acharn Thate was his Upajjhaya. Now he has made a good progress
in meditation. Having some problems in the practice, he presented
to Phra Acharn the following questions: |
May
I have permission, sir. I beg you to explain: the body within
the body, the feeling within the feeling, the heart within the
heart, and the Dhamma within the Dhamma, so that I may understand. |
According to
text books, the body within the body refers to the internal
body and theexternal body. The external body means the outside
of oneself; the internal body means the inside of oneself.
The internal feeling (Vedana) and the external feeling may
be explained the same way. We may say it simply that they
are the external Five Aggregates and the internal Five Aggregates.
The internal Five Aggregates are what we are. The external
Five aggregates are those outside of ourselves. This is what
is said in text books.
Now let's speak
from the pragmatic point of view. When the one who practises
is not able to get at the genuine heart, he will have to depend
upon the functionong of the phusical body with its mental
activities. To those who are capable of getting at the genuime
heart, the consciousness will be detached from the physical
body and from the mental activities connected with it. The
heart will be conscious of the heart itself. This heart also
contains its own set of five aggregates, similar to the one
we see in dreams. That is, it is not concrete.
Nevertheless,
it has a form visible only to the heart. It has feelings and
can perform any volitional activities. In other words, it
can at least be conscious of contacts. This inner "self"
is most difficult for us to part with. Even if we are to leave
the physical, external body upon death, we will cling to the
inner "self". This means we take our"Aggregates"
along to rebirth. |
When
I started out practising and was not fully concentrated, there
were usually mental perceptions of things past lurking here
and there. Sometimes various sense-objects passed by and new
mental formations arose. So I scolded myself
why did you behave
like this? And so on and so forth. Sometimes I even punished
myself, blaming myself for my own doing. Then I would be sorry
and cry for some time. After getting over, I felt that was not
the right thing to do, because at first there was only mental
flurries, but later there was anger added. That was not the
way to get rid of defilements. It was, however, the way to increase
them. So I tried to console myself, and the heart became quite.
What's the reason for doing that? |
That is a device
in the training if each and everyone of us. If we have no
gross sense-object and have not been able to perceive any
blemish in the heart, we will allow our thoughts to roam about,
grope about. We will cherish those thoughts.
The point is,
if we do not see the blemishes, we will not abandon them,
we will not want to leave them. Only when the blemishes become
quite large almost beyond correction, that we begin to see
them distinctly. The truth is, if we do not see a blemish
of a particular object, we will not be able to leave it. Now
this time we see the blemish quite clearly. So, as soon as
we see it, we have wisdom. When wisdom arises, the heart releases
the object, detaches it and becomes calm indeed. This is the
way to train the heart. And we all have the same experience.
The various sense-objects are like this.
When sense-objects
comes to our heart, it may be light or it may heavy. If we
have not come across the heavy one, we will feel happy. However,
as soon as the heavy one comes, then it si time for Dhamma.
We can catch that object and use it best as an object of contemplation.
If we are not able to see Dhamma, we will certainly be pestered
by it over and over again, so much so that you had to cry
as you related just now. Then we may see Dhamma or the Truth
(that is, attachment is suffering). |
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